Curse

Daeheru · Oct 26, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

So it's been a long time since I played my sin in PvE and I'm getting back into it. Because I didn't play PvE much with my sin, I don't have a whole lot available in terms of elites and PvE skills. Also, I just never got much experience with sins in PvE so I'm not sure what builds to use other than Moebius+Death Blossom. I also used WotA before but I never did PvE enough to actually get a real finished build going with it.

This is what I've got so far:

Dagger Mastery- 12+1+1
Shadow Arts- 3
Crit Strikes- 12+1

Critical Agility- I remember that this seemed to me to almost be a must in PvE
Jagged Strike- Low energy, short recharge, and bleeding.
Fox Fangs- Again, low energy, short recharge with a nice damage bonus.
Death Blossom- Shouldn't need to explain.
Moebius Strike (elite)- Like I said, I don't have many elites available and I don't want to waste time getting one if I'm not sure how well it works. I'm not saying this elite is trash, but I'd prefer something a little bit...more experienced playerish?
Crit Eye- Maintainable, long duration, low energy, extra energy when crit, and the obvious crit% boost.
Critical Defenses- Obvious reasons, although it would probably work better in a WotA build than this, but at this point I was running out of options.
Shadow Refuge- Again, ran out of options so I figured I'd use a self-heal. Short recharge, plus can counter degen to an extent plus a little health boost if it ends when I'm attacking. Wouldn't normally use if I had more options, better to leave the healing to companions.

I know that I need Asuran Scan, and I'd easily replace Shadow Refuge with it if I had it. After that I have 1 PvE slot left and I was thinking either SY or maybe IAU or "I Am The Strongest," although the latter would become useless within seconds of using it. Until I get a higher norn rank, it'd be like using a skill with a 5 second duration with a 20 second recharge. Only benefits after that are precast and damage bonus.

I'm not looking for a Moebius Strike build particularly, just looking for a good dagger build.

Bandwagon · Oct 26, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

"Way of the Assassin" is a decent elite if you want just straight up no-nonsense damage boosts, Moebius is kinda "meh" given that single targets will die in a hurry. Fox's Promise might be decent for block heavy areas. Wastrel's Collapse is also an option if you want a KD + 20 second recharge Shadowstep.
That is honestly all I can think of, there are no real elites in the sin tree that SCREAM "This is better in every way shape and form" if your running randomway/ H/H.

For PvE skills I would recommend A-scan (durr, you alrdy mentioned that one anyway).

Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor (unless someone else is bringing a copy already) Is awesome given that sins can take full advantage of the extra +damage.

If your using an ER protter, or the SoS on your team has spirits that are constantly / consistently at >50%, "By Ural's Hammer" can provide a no-nonsense, long duration damage boost.

A shadowstep from the Shadow Arts Line can be added (though the recharges are pretty long, ~30 recharge)

SY! is definitely an option that an assassin can take full advantage of since they attack very quickly.

Only take IAU if you really need the mobility in a certain area.

Daeheru · Oct 26, 2010, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

"Way of the Assassin" is a decent elite if you want just straight up no-nonsense damage boosts, Moebius is kinda "meh" given that single targets will die in a hurry.

Thanks for the input. After playing my sin a bit I realized just how annoying it was that single targets do die fast like you said. I don't often get to use Moebius, and about 20% of the time I don't even get to use Death Blossom. I'll probably switch to WotA now.

I do have one question about the chain. With WotA, would it be better to keep my current chain, or switch Death Blossom for Blades of Steel and change my lead and off-hand accordingly? I'm thinking of changing Jagged Strike regardless for WotA to take advantage of the extra crits.

Edit: Tried running Blades of Steel and the 8 second recharge was a bit annoying. Changed Jagged Strike for Golden Fox Strike. Just tested both with variations on Master of Damage, my original build kills faster, but as already stated it kills too fast for PvE. Tried with WotA and Blades of Steel, the recharge of BoS reduced my kill time by 4 seconds. The following worked best in terms of DPS and recharge times:

Critical Agility
Jagged Strike
Fox Fangs
Death Blossom
WotA
Crit Eye

It looks like that'll be my main bar, unless someone suggests something else. I'll probably replace Crit Defenses and Shadow Refuge with SY! and Asuran Scan. Crit Defenses so far I haven't needed and I already said I'd take Asuran Scan over Shadow Refuge.

Bandwagon · Oct 26, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

honestly there are no real alternatives to Jagged Strike, all the other lead attacks are either slow, or have longer recharge times than Fox Fangs (Since it has the longest recharge in the attack chain, Fox Fangs is the limiting factor for your damage).
The Whole point of Dagger spam builds is to....well....spam, and get to your fast recharge dual attack quickly, so you can follow it up with another (assuming the mob even lives that long).

Warvic · Oct 26, 2010, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I use A-scan and SY with my dagger spam build. I can keep SY up and deal the most DPS in my party. It's super nice but also very boring

Corpus Vitalis · Oct 27, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Another thing you could do (assuming you run with a monk hero) is use a slot on the hero for the maintainable enchantment Strength of Honor, and all it does is make you do even more damage in melee, increasing DPS. It isn't part of your build, but can be helpful if you decide to run in an area with creatures with high armor

As for an elite, you could fool around with Locust's Fury for the double strike chance and use the extra crit chance from Crit Eye to deal out a fair bit of damage.

Question: if you perform Death Blossom-a dual attack-and have Locust's Fury up and you double strike, will you strike 4 times, 3 times, or just 2 times? DB would really decimate mobs(more than it already does) if you hit everything around you 4 times for 40 dmg(160 to each foe-with only 1 attack!)
And also does Strength of Honor affect Death Blossom by upping the dmg(to all surrounding foes) or does it have no effect?

Daeheru · Oct 27, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpus Vitalis

Question: if you perform Death Blossom-a dual attack-and have Locust's Fury up and you double strike, will you strike 4 times, 3 times, or just 2 times? DB would really decimate mobs(more than it already does) if you hit everything around you 4 times for 40 dmg(160 to each foe-with only 1 attack!)
And also does Strength of Honor affect Death Blossom by upping the dmg(to all surrounding foes) or does it have no effect?

Well since with Dual Attacks you are already double striking, I imagine LF wouldn't work on them. I'm not sure though, it's possible that Anet made it work on dual attacks also just to make it more useful, but if it does work like that why aren't more people using it? Also, I've never seen DB double strike from dagger mastery. It's possible that it has and I just never noticed that it was unusual.

For Strength of Honor, I don't think it would work on DB's AoE because it specifically says "in melee." The AoE isn't melee and it's not melee damage either, it's armor ignoring.

FoxBat · Oct 27, 2010, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Double strikes can only happen when you are using NO attack skills. (i.e. autoattack) This makes locust's fury have very limited value.

Necromas · Oct 27, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

The standard PvE build is...

Dagger Mastery: 12+
Critical Strikes: 13+
Optional Other: rest

Attack Chain:
Jagged Strike | Golden Fox Strike
Fox Fangs | Wild Strike
Death Blossom

Spammy damage, the golden/wild version is less DPS but it can counter blocking, and you can do some nice AoE.

Key Support:

Critical Agility
Critical Eye
Asuran Scan

CAgility will give you warrior class armor and the only good non-elite IAS for an assassin, CEye gives you the extra boost you need to keep the energy going for your chain, and AScan is just too much extra damage to pass up.

The other two skill slots (or 3 if you don't have asuran scan) can vary a lot, especially since you have some attribute points and an elite slot to spare.

"Save Yourselves!" is very popular for obvious reasons. For other PvE skills, brawling headbutt can be very useful too.

For the elite people often go with a stance, either flashing blades for defense or way of the assassin for energy/damage.

For secondaries, conjures from the ele lines or even demonic flesh from blood magic might be good ideas.

Personally I actually like going ranger secondary and taking a pet.

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 27, 2010, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Double strikes can only happen when you are using NO attack skills. (i.e. autoattack) This makes locust's fury have very limited value.

This is correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daeheru

For Strength of Honor, I don't think it would work on DB's AoE because it specifically says "in melee." The AoE isn't melee and it's not melee damage either, it's armor ignoring.

You don't hit the foes so SoH will not affect the AoE damage.

Lourens · Oct 27, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Its the classical blossom spam everyone knows it

wild strike for fox fangs and throw critical strike in it take out shadow refuge.

Bobby2 · Oct 29, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Instead of Crit Def and Shadow Refuge you could bring more useful skills such as SY!, Asuran Scan, a speed boost (Rush/Dash) or a snare (YMLAD). The benefit of Moebius decreased since Jagged and Fox Fangs got buffed so you could easily run another Elite... or don't bother with one at all

Bandwagon · Oct 30, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

wild strike for fox fangs

Unless your dealing with Block Stances, this is a needless DPS loss

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

and throw critical strike in it take out shadow refuge.

You actually need Energy when you sin spam? C S is redundant when you have 13 in critical strikes and critical eye / zealous daggers

Daeheru · Oct 30, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

You actually need Energy when you sin spam? C S is redundant when you have 13 in critical strikes and critical eye / zealous daggers

After adding asuran scan to my bar and taking out shadow refuge, as well as buying new armor for my sin and reducing his energy from 30 to 25, I agree that even then extra energy isn't needed. I dropped the energy down because I noticed that it was actually too much energy and the runes and insignias were better spent on hp. Energy can (rarely) get tight at the beginning of a fight because of crit eye (5e), WotA (5e), crit agility (5e), and asuran scan (5e) so by the time I'm actually done precasting everything I'm down to about 7-8 energy from regen. So if that first hit isn't a crit, even with zealous daggers energy can be tight. Just have to give it a few seconds though and it's pretty much full though

Funny thing about changing the runes though is because I'm using a major vigor instead of superior, my hp is 606. With the hp boost from the norn title, it's 666

Carinae · Oct 30, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Wild Strike isn't as good as Fox's Promise, which overcomes Aegis and Wards, in addition to Stances.

Moebius is also still fine, and won't tax your initial energy as much.

Bandwagon · Oct 30, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daeheru

Energy can (rarely) get tight at the beginning of a fight because of crit eye (5e), WotA (5e), crit agility (5e), and asuran scan (5e) so by the time I'm actually done precasting everything I'm down to about 7-8 energy from regen. So if that first hit isn't a crit, even with zealous daggers energy can be tight. Just have to give it a few seconds though and it's pretty much full though

I find if I stagger the use of my skills that prep me up for dealing 1337 damage I can maintain my energy during the initial spurt of skill use.
IE: Holding off on, lets say, A scan until I get 1-2 skills off, since I will be waiting ~1-2 seconds for Fox Fangs to recharge anyway I might as well make the rotation sustainable to reduce the risk that I won't have enough energy to use FF when it pops up.

I apologize before hand if no one understands wtf I am trying to say

.

Issac · Nov 02, 2010, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I enjoy Critical Agility, but it seems to be getting stripped a good amount for me. Especially in HM and in the WiK. Sometimes the second I reapply it, it's gone. I've been running WotA for a bit to see how it is, been going pretty good. Along with critical eye, SY, dash and critical defense since I couldn't think of anything else. I know CD is another enchantment, but even though it does get stripped it doesn't seem like that I'm at that much of a disadvantage then when CA gets stripped. I guess I could bring both CA and WotA but would it be worth it?

Bandwagon · Nov 02, 2010, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Issac

I enjoy Critical Agility, but it seems to be getting stripped a good amount for me. Especially in HM and in the WiK. Sometimes the second I reapply it, it's gone. I've been running WotA for a bit to see how it is, been going pretty good. Along with critical eye, SY, dash and critical defense since I couldn't think of anything else. I know CD is another enchantment, but even though it does get stripped it doesn't seem like that I'm at that much of a disadvantage then when CA gets stripped. I guess I could bring both CA and WotA but would it be worth it?

Assuming your h/hing bring cover enchants, sometimes there is just too much Enchant hate and your SoL (use order heroes/ rapid end / reapplying chants since Critical Agility reapplies itself to the top of the stack EVERY time you crit)

Daeheru · Nov 02, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Issac

I enjoy Critical Agility, but it seems to be getting stripped a good amount for me. Especially in HM and in the WiK. Sometimes the second I reapply it, it's gone. I've been running WotA for a bit to see how it is, been going pretty good. Along with critical eye, SY, dash and critical defense since I couldn't think of anything else. I know CD is another enchantment, but even though it does get stripped it doesn't seem like that I'm at that much of a disadvantage then when CA gets stripped. I guess I could bring both CA and WotA but would it be worth it?

I'm not having huge problems with Crit Agility getting stripped, but we may just be playing different parts of the game. What I do is I bring both WotA and CA, and if CA keeps getting stripped I just don't reapply it because WotA is still giving me an 18% IAS. Not a huge loss really. If you see it getting stripped a lot, just pay attention to what you're currently fighting so you know when to expect to see it stripped later on.

Aqrab · Nov 04, 2010, 04:23 AM // 04:23

So would you guys run a defensive skill while running CA and Wota or no? I always get the feeling that I'm only getting half the benefit of the skill when running CA and Wota together.